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Post by Head Fur Shalafi on Sept 28, 2007 13:19:03 GMT -5
I'd say either After X time of the original player not owning it it would go inactive..... reasoning... minefields need to be maintained or they fall into disrepair space rocks can wreck havoc on anything in space Or It just goes inactive..... in capturing the planet you find the layout for the minefield and chop enough holes in it so it is rendered worthless the latter would be easier but less realistic
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Post by Evil Spock on Sept 28, 2007 15:14:49 GMT -5
See it is getting more complicated, no need to start out that way,.. it will sneak up on us all on its own.
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Post by Head Fur Shalafi on Sept 28, 2007 15:49:26 GMT -5
that's why this is a hashing out thread to keep it from getting out of control
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Post by Evil Spock on Sept 28, 2007 19:40:22 GMT -5
I guess I like Dflys ideal.
Originally I thought, if you pay for it you can place it where ever you own the hex? Figured it was built there. You really do not need a dry dock to construct a mine ?
But if you guys want to transport and track it, hell I don't care I am not reffing it. Go for it!
Someone has to suggest a damage table,.. and chance of hit rules?
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Post by Maximus Plasma on Sept 28, 2007 20:24:53 GMT -5
Well i do like the idea of building at a base and moving it, There are minelaying ships for most races . so....... More latter i have to run out of time right now .
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Post by Evil Spock on Sept 28, 2007 21:39:42 GMT -5
Are there really mine layers in like mid era,.. ?
That would be a heck of a start up cost and maybe a nice penalty, it could be a good step to reducing cost of field, etc.
Maybe if they are not in there they could be created,... Shalifi ? For a teams game that is only 2 ships to build. Maybe cause the ship is not a combat ship they could be cheap ?
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Post by Head Fur Shalafi on Sept 29, 2007 0:00:01 GMT -5
they're easially made but wouldn't be of much use other than the strategic minefields... ie you can't use their actual mine racks in combat unfortunately ya by far my favorite ship to fly in SFB is the SPM+
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Post by DeathFrog on Sept 29, 2007 11:00:40 GMT -5
Perhaps a ship could be designated as a minelayer if there is none in the list. Suchas, stating the Lyran FF is a minelayer for the Lyrans, and the Mirak FF is the minelayer for them. Making sure to pick 2 ships that are worth the same to build, and are virtually useless in battle? OR, as I had mentioned earlier, any ship could do it, provided it picked up the mines at the station and delivered them.
As per having a minefield around a base, or any other place for that matter, I would suggest that the intel of those minefields are on the base somewhere in the databanks, along with the homeworld. IF a base or homeworld fall, the team taking such a place would learn of the minefields and their deployment. They would then fall into the category of knowing about the locations of the minefields and would have to fly accordingly when crossing them as per rules. The minefield would continue to stay active as it was built to last a Century or more and no campaign would ever surpass that. The intel gathered does not make the field obsolete, it is just giving the locations. This would give even more insentive to protect your bases and homeworld.
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Post by 6 of 9 on Sept 29, 2007 12:02:10 GMT -5
I have a question.... say the base lays a minefield around the base, player A controls it, I agree in the part where all ships from player's A nation knows about the minefield and have plotted a safe course through it or temporarily disabled them... and then player B comes in, of course he rolls for damage through the mines, he gets somewhat damage but then attacks the base and wins.... now, several questions here: 1. How many times does a minefield work? after several "uses" the minefield starts to run out of mines and each time a passing ship activates them, it creates a hole in the minefield 2. you said that the intel of that minefield would be in the databanks of the base, so if player B "takes" the base it would learn of such minefield and then be able to safely travel through it.... now, notice the word "takes" would that mean capture it? cause if you destroy it then the intel should go bye bye... 3. when nation A lays a minefield around one of his bases, it seems realistic that the homeworld and the rest of the ships of that nation be informed about it, so even if player B's nation takes the minefield, the nation A would still know how to navigate through it? unless you plan that the navigation is run by the starbase and the ships don't have the chart. question 3 is a little doubt on how you plan on explaining the minefield navigation, tho I think it's pretty rhetorical , I still have doubts on the first 2 tho.
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Post by Maximus Plasma on Sept 30, 2007 10:14:05 GMT -5
OK here is my take on the minefield being captured if a base or planet or whatever is captured . No it does not fall into the capturing players control. The player who laid it would hit the self destruct command. and the Field blows its self up. Clean and simple. Now as to how many times a field can cause damage. the mines have a self replicating capability. {IE} one mines blows up another is made to replace it. {aka deep space 9} type field. {A} Laying the field. takes a mine laying ship not just any ship. {B} The field must be payed for and built at a base or planet {C} The mines must be transported by ship to the where they are to be deployed. the mine layer must be used to do this. {D} It takes 3 consecutive impulses to lay a minefield, If the laying of the field is interrupted . The laying player must restart from the first impulse again. So if a ship had to stop laying say on the 2nd impulse. Then to complete the job they still have 3 impulses to finish. This is to simulate the difficulties of timing the distance between the mines and their reaction programing. {E} There is no maintenance fee for the laying player the field last as long as the campaign. Or the laying player lasts {IE} a team or player is knocked out of a campaign then their fields become inactive. OK now the odds for setting off a mine if entered blind would be 30% ? PER SHIP ENTERING THE FIELD The odds for setting off if crossing but knowing that the field was there would be 20% ?FOR THE LEAD SHIP . the rest don't have to roll. The odds for a legendary crew would be 10% ? This is where i would like some more feedback. How much damage will a ship take? I feel the mines should be all worth the same amount of damage. Say a mine is 100 points of damage. we know the shield size of the ship , the rest count as internal? Does that sound OK? Is there a chart out there somewhere that shows how many internals each ship has? Now one last point i believe that we wanted to revamp our spy rolls rules section i suggest adding a knowledge gained about enemy minefields to replace or add in that section.
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Post by Evil Spock on Sept 30, 2007 10:59:30 GMT -5
I do not mean to hurt anyones feelings but you have to realize you're all looking at this from a players perspective.
From a refs perspective this is a lot of work. I have no clue how much time George has to devote to resolving turns but for me this would be killer.
It is fair to say that likely each player will implement at least one minefield. Some/probably more than one. So your looking at possibly 20+ minefields in a typical game maybe many more? This greatly complicates an already complicated process of resolving the turn and backend work for the ref to track all these minefields.
I will go with whatever George wishes cause he is running the upcoming game, but my advice to him and all of you is if this is not made MUCH simpler your bordering on creating a game breaker here.
In the end I will also propose a version of minefield rules that will be much simpler, cause I would like to see them in the game, but what I see developing here seems very backend heavy for the Ref.
Again I am not try to shot down ideals, but until you run a game with 100 ships moving around and complicated fleet interactions, you cannot really evaluate the extra work involved from a ref's view of managing this new feature as it is being presented. In the end it does come down to how much time the guy running the game wishes to put into resolving turns.
Hey, maybe I am a slackard ref, and this is totally doable by George or others,...
Just my 2 cents here.
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Post by DeathFrog on Sept 30, 2007 11:20:30 GMT -5
I do like Barry's last post about minefields and agree it would be a matter of nailing down damage resolutions and %atges. As per how much a ship can take in damage before it blows up, it usually rounds out to about 150% of the BPV of the ship, not more. Such as, a ship at 100 BPV would blow up with 150 internals. a ship at 60 BPV would blow up at 90 internals. A 200 BPV ship would blow up by 300 internals. This is based on my experience over years of gaming. Many ships can last a bit more and many would not last that long, but an overal average is around 150%. This is also based on taking a massive amount of damage in a shot. If you calculate over a long(1hour or more) battle where you took damage dozens of times you could see it get near 200% but that is rare. I know a minefield would be an instantanious damage resolution so I would say nothing more than 150%.
I would suggest that damage is also dependant on ship size. Therefore I recommend it be within a % of the BPV of the ship. I suggest 50% damaged. I suggest this because if a field were to do 100 damage, any small ship would be nearly dead or dead and a DN would have a few scratches yet I think a DN flying through a minefield would set off many more mines than an FF. Just my thoughts on this.
My thoughts on the odds of setting off a minefield. I recommend 50% odds till a ship hits them. Then I would imagine anyone would stop the ships ASAP after hitting them. Then they would try to coordinate their run through them so I would say only maybe a 10% chance for remaining ships to hit one before they align themselves.
Does this add too much for the refs to manage? I don't know as I have not tried to do this. Scott believes it does add too much. While I would really love to see mines added in(as I have never been in a campaign with them) I believe it is up to us to hash out the rules on it, and then it is totally up to the Refs to decide on the use or non-use of them. Whatever the refs decide on the use or non-use of any part of the rules is their choice to make. Ours afterwards would be a choice of to fly or not fly within the rules chosen by the Refs. And I bet requardless of what rules the Refs choose, we would rather fly than not fly.
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Post by Maximus Plasma on Sept 30, 2007 11:38:28 GMT -5
Well scott , we could put a limit on the # of fields per side to limit them . Or a production rate {IE} the # of turns it takes to build the mines. And since it would take a minelaying ship to place them and transport them i don't beleive the # of fields would be too great. As for the damage . one roll to see if they hit, a second roll to see how many they hit? Or just one roll to represent all the hits . that would be one roll per ship of course.
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Post by Evil Spock on Sept 30, 2007 12:36:50 GMT -5
Anything that makes it easier for the ref would be my goal. Like I say I will propose a set of rules independant of the collaborative effort based on what I could manage as a ref. Again it all depends on what the ref is willing to tackle. A new ref like George/Shalifi/Dfly may have far more ambition to run a kick ass game and spend a lot of time on it, than someone like myself who has run them for many years.
Agreed the ref decides in the end and so do players.
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Post by Head Fur Shalafi on Sept 30, 2007 14:05:59 GMT -5
With the way they stand now.... I'm gonna go with Scott... looks like a ref's nightmare right now when I get a break from the hell of homework I'll see if I can come up with a simplified version that still keeps most of the ideas. another thing to remember.. the more parts to a rule the easier it is to find a loophole
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