Mine Proposal, all mine :)

[Evil Spock]

This proposal is zero ref work until an enemy unit hits the field.

Spend 30 EP to create a minefield around any "Point of interest" you own (occupied, staffed, etc). They do not cover the hex only a planetary system, research facility, derelict ship, etc.

It activates the turn after the minefield is in place (like a spy). We do not move other things we build, there is no reason to start tracking the placement and deployment of a minefield or base or research facility, etc.

This means the ref does not even need to care where they are, cause the player who owns the hex the field is, and will announce that it is there when needed. Of course it is in the orders, just the ref does not have to place it on his campaign map, track it etc. The player who places it will execute its use. Upon use the ref "should" audit for correct deployment back on turn x

If an enemy fleet enters the hex the fleet rolls with a 1-3 chance out of 8 for damage to "a" "random" ship. Leading with a particular ship does not matter as mines can be set to detonate against any size hull so the ship in front is not always guaranteed to get hit. (old SFB mine rule)

Hits are rolled before battles etc. So if someone is attacking a base they would roll prior to battle and have the option to cancel battle if results were bad although defending fleet could then come out in the same impulse, possible forcing a disengagement roll, all as per regular rules.

Damage
FF 2d6 x10%
CL 1-8 x10% -10
CA 1-6 x10% -10
DN 1-4 x10% -10

Ownership of hex is key to minefield. Once ownership is changed mines are gone, we will now say part of ownership/occupy is clearing the hex of mines, part of why an occupy takes 3 dam.n impulses!

Any EP source that is mined produces 1/2 regular EP due to restrictions on trade.

A blockade is within the effective area of a minefield, the fleet would have to roll once to initiate a blockade.

A fleet/ship only rolls once per minefield, but multiple fleets might have several rolls against a single field.

KISS

It can and will grow more complicated all on its own given time.

[DeathFrog]

If you dont mind, I have some questions and wish to pick this apart a tad. More to help clear up some points.

in your first part you state:"They do not cover the hex only a planetary system, research facility, derelict ship, etc."

I think you may have it wrong? If it does not cover the hex then someone could easily just fly by and not be affected by it unless they were there to invade? If they choose to just fly by and not invade they are free and clear?

Also, how would a player "execute it's use"? As per above, you tell me I have entered a hex where there is say a research fascility. You "execute" your minefield? What if I was saying I was just flying by because the minefield does not occupy the hex? Can you maybe clear this up. Of course maybe it is only me who is not seeing what you meant.

You do continue with "If an enemy fleet enters the hex the fleet rolls with a...." which implies it does take up the hex.

I take it you maybe meant "they do not cover an empty hex"?

one more question: How do you roll a 1-3 chance out of 8?

I think you would lose out on that "cancel battle" the way you worded it. If you attack the base during a blockade, or prior to announcing a blockade, and hit mines, you should still have to enter the battle vs the base and then fly off the map, announcing your blockade. At that point the defending team could send out their ships to continue the battle or force a disengagement role. I think this is what you meant.

You did try to simplify it, and using it only on stationary "points of interest" would take a lot of tracking out of the game, as well as minelayers too. I think the Ref would still need to "record" where each mine is placed, and by whom, as to enemies coming into the hex and running into them. I think they should take up the whole hex and any enemy coming in runs into it.
I would be surprised at anyone wanting to cut their EP income from a source by 1/2 per turn for the duration of that minefield if you place a minefield at an EP source. That would also require the Refs to know where they are placed in order to verify the player is actually cutting that EP source in 1/2.


To keep it even simpler, just state that the mine occupies the entire hex of said "point of interest". I dont like the one about the cutting of EP. Any enemy ship entering the hex runs into the minefield and rolls accordingly.

[Evil Spock]

I cannot fathom that an entire hex that is 100'/dozens ?' s of light years across is filled with mines. The POI ideal works, if your just passing through a hex then you do not encounter a minefield. It is only if you decide to capture the research facility (and SD die roll if the player spent money) or occupy the hex

There is a lot to address in your reply.

A minefield can never occupy an entire hex, that is beyond outrageous. IMHO

A player/or ref,... executes its use when someone declares I am siezing the research facility in the hex or I am declaring an occupy or assault on the base.

It it important to poke all possible holes into it. This is an example of how difficult it may be to implement such a rule,... and in the end why it may fail to be implemented.


you wrote
I think you would lose out on that "cancel battle" the way you worded it. If you attack the base during a blockade, or prior to announcing a blockade, and hit mines, you should still have to enter the battle vs the base and then fly off the map, announcing your blockade. At that point the defending team could send out their ships to continue the battle or force a disengagement role. I think this is what you meant.

I say to you, this requires more in depth convo but no I see it as the guy attacking declares the attack on the base, the player or ref announce a minefield, damage chance is done. If the damage is high the player aborts the attack, defending player can engage, there is no need to put this in a battle format at range of planetary system level to resolve it.

Max roll 8 on my custom die roll generator, 1-3 says impact.

I like the EP cut else players will put these all over their main sources of EP. New York Harbor was not mined in WWII. This should be a last ditch effort to stop or hinder an invasion not a regular thing done.

These rules may be too harsh much like spys and SD, but when you introduce a rule, like spy and SD you do so with caution and open it later if needed. Sometimes such a rule intro can wreck a campaign, as I have done in the past.

All of us will never agree on any particular set of rules regaurding this,... it is like our US Senate

Last note: George is talking of the actual movement of EP during the game and controlling this for the Mercahnt Commander,.. if this is the case I see no reason that we could not move and track minefield deployment, it not adding much more of anything then. So I would addendum the rules above.

[Head Fur Shalafi]

OK my turn ;D (breaks out the red pen )
additions/questions in red

This proposal is zero ref work until an enemy unit hits the field.

Spend 30 EP to create a minefield around any "Point of interest" you own (occupied, staffed, etc). They do not cover the hex only a planetary system, research facility, derelict ship, etc.

It activates the turn after the minefield is in place (like a spy). We do not move other things we build, there is no reason to start tracking the placement and deployment of a minefield or base or research facility, etc.

This means the ref does not even need to care where they are, cause the player who owns the hex the field is, and will announce that it is there when needed. Of course it is in the orders, just the ref does not have to place it on his campaign map, track it etc. The player who places it will execute its use. Upon use the ref "should" audit for correct deployment back on turn x
ok answered in post

If an enemy fleet enters the hex the fleet rolls with a 1-3 chance out of 8 for damage to "a" "random" ship. Leading with a particular ship does not matter as mines can be set to detonate against any size hull so the ship in front is not always guaranteed to get hit. (old SFB mine rule)

Hits are rolled before battles etc. So if someone is attacking a base they would roll prior to battle and have the option to cancel battle if results were bad although defending fleet could then come out in the same impulse, possible forcing a disengagement roll, all as per regular rules.

Damage
FF 2d6 x10%
CL 1-8 x10% -10
CA 1-6 x10% -10
DN 1-4 x10% -10

Ownership of hex is key to minefield. Once ownership is changed mines are gone, we will now say part of ownership/occupy is clearing the hex of mines, part of why an occupy takes 3 dam.n impulses!

Any EP source that is mined produces 1/2 regular EP due to restrictions on trade.

WHY? so you mine all the approaches to the POI... you just TURN OFF the mines that are in the trade routes, mine's aren't dumb anymore when an enemy fleet shows up ya send out a warning to stop coming through the trade routes... and turn the mines back on OR going on a more SFB mentality you tell the mines to ignore freighter hulls. (course going by that logic pirate movement would render you immune to minefields)

A blockade is within the effective area of a minefield, the fleet would have to roll once to initiate a blockade.

umm... the fleet already rolled when they came into the hex? they roll again? conflict of rules

A fleet/ship only rolls once per minefield, but multiple fleets might have several rolls against a single field.

Not that it would happen much but shouldn't this be per time the ship enters the hex? if it stays in the hex (for simplicity's sake) it rolls only once.

KISS

It can and will grow more complicated all on its own given time.

And JUST to be an extra pain in the A$$ what about cloaks


right scott no new york wasn't mined cause the US was far enough away it didn't have to worry about warships coming knocking...
name a port in Europe that WASN'T mined in WW2? I know for a fact that the 3 largest ports WERE mined. Prien's Scapa Flow raid is a good example.

Anyway these are moot arguments cause at that time you couldn't tell a mine to ignore certain ships or ship sizes.

the way around them becoming too much of a threat is to reduce the amount of damage they do.

[Evil Spock]

Why have 1/2 EP,.. because mines are not typically placed around points of great merchant activity. Again in WWII they Americans did not mine New York city and if they did it would have caused problems reflected in the 1/2 EP rule.

The real reason is it will stop folks from just blanketing their nation with these things. There should be some disadvantage to this or they will be all over the place.

Blockade,.... You can enter a hex with a minefield and nothing happens, the minefield is put in play when someone does an occupy, attack, capture a derelict ship etc. Entire hexs are not mined. A fleet entering a hex with a base would not discover the minefield until a blockade or attack is declared.

Cloaks avoid mines, there is no chance for a hit unless the vessel uncloaks, for example to blockade or attack a base, etc

Not that it would happen much but shouldn't this be per time the ship enters the hex? if it stays in the hex (for simplicity's sake) it rolls only once.

I think it should read the fleet or ship shall roll whenever it fullfills the requirement for revealing the field. IE it attacks the base on imp 1, fails and retreats, imp 2 reinforcements arrive and they attack again so again they must roll, etc. Just delete that line

[Head Fur Shalafi]

Ok the blockade makes sense now...

the 1/2 ep because of the mines makes putting them even in just key locations WAY too expensive...
give you an example... (using the b5 EP production values the pirate campaign had low values on purpose) if someone built a minefield on turn 1 on their homeworld (probably the single most key position in anyone's nation) by the end of the game (turn 12) it would have cost 30+15*11= 195 ep... O.o minefields are useful but not worth sacrificing a DN worth of ep for ONE field

[DeathFrog]

I agree with Shalafi on the cost of 1/2 EP issue. Way too much. As far as Cloaks avoiding mines, I disagree, with explanation and idea. A cloaked ship may not be seen by the mines, but it will not see the mines either. I would rather see that a cloaked ship takes 1/2 damage from mines, due to the mines not seeing it, but also the mines can be hit by it, and shoot due to that. This would require that the ref know where the mines are, which he needs to know, and it would be in the turn sheets.

[Evil Spock]

Yes that 195 EP is exactly why New York City was not mined in WWII.

No one should mine their capital unless all hope is lost for the nation and the war has come to the homeworld. Mining your homeworld should be considered an outrageous and a last ditch defense effort when the enemy is at your gates.

For me at least the ideal of minefields is not to make defensive positions even stronger,.. if that is what you wish that will indeed happen. In my opinion the balance of defense and attack on bases is just about correct "right now". Our games see an appropriate amount of capitals/bases fall and others stand the assault. Be carefull folks to not tip that balance. Minefields offer that potential.

If there is no penatly to implementing minefields over your production zones,.. it will be done. Alot. This is not good for the game.

The penatly is logical, you cannot expect to mine your capital and not have repercussions from doing so. Mining your capital or any major EP source is a last ditch effort not a normal method of defense. In my opinion.

Personally I am not that concerned how the rules work out. I am not running the game so the overhead and the calls on rules do not impact me or my Ref reputation that much. I take no offense at the hole poking that you folks do. In fact it is good to do so, keep it up. In the past though I have made the mistake of implementing a rule that ruined a campaign or 5. Because of this I err on the side of caution with any game changing rule like this. This rule can change the balance of base defense and minefields could become prolific.

Like I say this is just what would work for me and is a proposal for the ref to use, other proposals are welcome and I in turn will poke holes in those this is our job as dedicated players. If any rule is good it will withstand the poking.

Lastly to the ref,.. if the rule about 1/2 EP is removed I would suggest upping the cost of a minefield or reducing the damage or hit chance downward. Or 1/4 EP lose?

As far as cloaks,.. that is not that big a deal either way you go. The primary reason for no impact is it is easier for the ref to deal with. If seperate tables or impact chances need to be incorperated for this specific case,.. whatever. Overall it should be pretty rare as cloak races are not seen in games that often.

Keep the cannons firing crew !

Hey what about some other proposals different than mine ? Get it,.. mine,.. hardy har har,..

[Maximus Plasma]

I can see the POI part, that makes sense. I totally disagree with the EVP cut. AS Walter pointed out these are not dumb WW2 mines.
You may turn them off or perhaps your merchants are given directions when they enter the hex as to how to reach port safely.
Your main concern seems to be the # of minefields becoming excessive. I covered that in one of my posts.Requiring a mine-laying ship, and or, adding a manufacturing rate. or even setting a limit by the ref per campaign. Say George likes the minefield idea he may set a high limit this time if he hates it he may set a none, or very low limit.

[Evil Spock]

I would like to hear more details on the mine laying ship?

Cause to spend 50-75 EP for lame ship may be worse than what I am proposing.

Then you also encourage,... once the ship or ships are built, a large proliferation of MF's cause you lock the cost of a MF to an initial start up cost of a ship. Once that is done I assume the MF's themselves are cheap and may be created like breeding rabits!

Tell me more though, my pointy ears are open.

[Head Fur Shalafi]

lol... the minelayer idea I had sent I was planning on taking SFB minelayers and adding 60 or so EP to their costs (military ones would be around 150-180 depending) or if you took a generic minelaying freighter (if that was available I would seriously cut how much damage the field would do as it would become cheap) would cost about 100. military minelayers can usually defend themselves pretty well.

at 150+ they're expensive enough (it's a big CA for most races) that they would not be able to be built in more than small numbers and if it takes an entire turn to lay one field they couldn't breed like rabbits... elephants maybe but not rabbits

[Maximus Plasma]

I think the ,{SPM} would be a good model for the layers,
I am not sure of the price i think around 140 evp. It can fight well enough. It would not put a fleet at a disadvantage having one in it.
The cost of the minefield i had in mind was between 50 and 75 evp.
So total cost here around 190 to 210. Expensive enough to keep from "breeding like rabbits" Yet still a viable option to aid in guarding sites/bases without tying up ships.
This would be about the same as a DN .
And since it takes at least a "Bats" to build a CL or larger hull ,to place a field at a site other than a bats or SB. You need to add in the travel time of time the minelaying ship to reach that destination.
As for the damage rates your chart confused my poor 6th grade educated brain.
FF 2d6 x10%
CL 1-8 x10% -10
CA 1-6 x10% -10
DN 1-4 x10% -10
So the max here is for a FF, 12x10% =14.4??
CL 8x10%=6.4-10= -3.6
CA 6x10%=3.6-10= -6.4
DN 4x10%=1.6-10= -8.4
I'm really confused!
i need stargazer !

[Evil Spock]

your missing out on the x10% so if the FF rolls 2 die 6 and totals a 7 then 7x10% ='s 70% damage. If the 2d6 roll totalled 11 the FF would be destroyed.

So a DN can get away with 0 to 30% damage. Even if it hits a mine there is a small chance it will take no damage.

If these costs are to be put in place for a minefield you best up the chance for a hit or the damage cause no one will pay 100+ EP for a small shot at small damage.

BS builds FF and CL hulls
BATS build all hulls

[Head Fur Shalafi]

a straight SPM is 108 the SPM+ is I think 120? I'll rummage around and find it sometime lol most minelayers will be slightly cheaper than that.

[Maximus Plasma]

OK well i did the math as 10% x using the the percent as a multiplier.
The cost was a guess Walter, most SPH class are between 120 and 173,
So i took a middle price there. But in any case i still think a total package of around 190 to 215 would be about right to lay out a minefield.
You still get a ship even if you never build another minefield , and having a field should ease the need to tie down ships for defense, Anyway i just think that we have discussed the matter enough . so .....