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Post by ISN War Reporter (Embedded) on Aug 10, 2007 7:50:35 GMT -5
Give them points, let em build what they want...with limits...
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Post by Evil Spock on Aug 10, 2007 15:01:03 GMT -5
Results in stupid stuff, like this Pirate game is full of. No insult George but I know the composition of many nations fleets and they are plan silly. Like for example I know several races/people in this current game that have all plasma FFL's, DDL's etc so 90 percent of their fleet is this type of ship. Sure they like them (well less now that they learned you cannot defend a base with them) but my point is made. In this game I like NCL's so that is what pretty much all my fleet is except for a DNL. You get really unrealistic (Barf) fleets with this option. Sure it can be done, and no biggy if that is what we do,... but ,.... it makes for a BLAND game !!! Were is the fun of the not so great ship taking on another not so great ship ? Where is the fun of seeing a klingon D6 fly or a War Eagle. You flat out remove a major aspect of the game. Sure let em pick, ya know why,... it is freaking easy for the ref. No work involved, name the points and pick away. I personally feel it eliminates a bunch of ships from the game, only good ships will get choosen, it is unrealistic, it is more boring, it is the easy way out. A good comprimise would be for the ref to pick 1/2 the fleet and player pick the remaining half. This gaurentees some LINE ships. Does anyone remember what a line ship is,... anyone have one in this game. Anyone have a line ship ? I would bet no one does. So the most common type of ship,... "that should represent the bulk of a nations fleet" is not even in our Pirate game. Ya that sounds just perfect Roman,...
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Post by DeathFrog on Aug 10, 2007 19:33:56 GMT -5
in response to wanting refs to choose all ships for all players. I do apreciate you ideas Scott, and am addressing them. I in no way mean any disrespect with my below comments, just comments on your comments, with hopes of people being able to build off it. Actually Scott, you have seen some of my ships personally, and you have seen postings of what a lot of my ships are comprised of. You talk about your having NCL ships and a DNL ;D. Try starting with 850 points and know you NEED to buy 9 ships with it. In tune to last campaign I tried to gake a big ship for my command ship as I did not think a 90pt ship is a command ship. There are not a lot of big command ships available so I took a DNL, and that left me with under a 75pt/ship average left. What do you take then? That does not even average to the DD ships(Frigate at 90 pts with photons). I could not even start with the DD as I would need to buy shuttles for the rest of my fleet, and they have been forbidden to me . You have seen my Frigates, which yes they are FFL+(2 plasmaF each, no photons). What am I(or the other players who started with such low points) supposed to buy with an average of under the 100 bpv/ship for 9, let alone a command ship and 8 more? What could a Ref have given me instead that could give me and others a near fighting chance with such low bpv? Ever go to war with a plain FF(very underpowered, no point defence, no shields, vs an NCL? Heck even I could not do that and win vs any of you here. How is anyone else supposed to do it? The NCL did become a line ship for the Feds as it quickly replaced many CAs that were lost in battle as it was quicker and cheaper to build. So ya, a few people have line ships in my opinion. Perhaps you are right in that myself and nearly 1/2 the others here should have started in ships with 4 phasers and a drone or 2 while the other 1/2 started in NCLs and DNLs. Would have been fair no? BUT, I agree with you that ship selection need be better managed, just not necessarily for the same reasons as you. Perhaps as you say the Refs could pick 1/2 of the ships while the player picks the other 1/2, but with different starting bpv, the better players would be left with no bpv to pick ships with. Maybe the Refs need pick all the starting ships? That even does not stop anyone from building only the best ships available. One way around that would be to put restrictions on building. Such as: 1-no command or special ship can be built before 2 line ships have already been built. 2-starting ships for campaign must be comprised of at least 2/3 line ships. Would that work? It would for IMO.
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Post by Maximus Plasma on Aug 10, 2007 22:09:44 GMT -5
Well line ships are supposed to make up the bulk of any fleet. so maybe if the line ships were picked /assigned then a set evp given to the leader of each nation to pick his command vessels and specialty ships.
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Post by Lord Hellus, Council Chairman on Aug 10, 2007 22:13:07 GMT -5
My next campaign is going to be assigned ships due to it being a small-scale campaign. Scott, I just wanted players to inject their personal choices into this campaign, as with the planetary repair, it turned out to be another poor idea. My first campaign, I've made mistakes
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Post by Evil Spock on Aug 11, 2007 0:04:33 GMT -5
I agree with you Dfly, this campaign was set up for ships to be picked and I did not mean that in this game they should have been assigned by a ref.
My thoughts were for the Teams game coming up.
I think that if we have two nations go at it that it would be a shame if all the ships were picked by players.
Just cause you can pretty much thin down our OP shiplist to probably less than half the ships in the game.
I just feel there is a lot more flavor to a game in which the best ships are not the only ships in the game.
PS DFly I was actually refering to others players fleets that I know of, I really have not known what you have as I have only seen hull types. I suppose with work I could have tried to calculate your fleet based on the flag, but that is too much like work for me.
This game is fine with ships picked, but I was hoping that we would not see all future games like that.
I agree that something should be done, though I do not know the best way to tackle the issue.
Picking is an important part of it cause it allows folks to pick ships they like, reflects skill in choices, but it should not be 100% picks.
I just want to see an injection somehow of the regular ships in the game along with picks.
It also changes races. Here is why-
When you run Romulan in a picks game they are much better cause folks will not pick the crap ships. Historically though the Romulans were behind the times in most eras with ships. The War Eagle vs Fed CA is more typical of traditional Romulan fleets. The good Romulan ships are real good, the regular Romulan ships are not that good.
When Refs pick Romulan nation start fleets the race is weaker than when players pick the fleet.
I suspect that may hold for some other nations but I am not sure like I am Romulans.
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Post by Maximus Plasma on Aug 11, 2007 6:16:47 GMT -5
In truth the war eagle and it sublight brothers were the main stay of the romulan fleet. But only in the early era. By the time of the mid era , they had the KR class hulls "thanks to the klingons". Which at least gave them a fighting chance. I realize there is strong dislike of romulan ships in this play group. But if there is ever any need for a player to have to fly romulan ships. Count me in! I have been, and awlays will be a romulan at heart!
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Post by Maximus Plasma on Aug 11, 2007 6:28:13 GMT -5
Hey George, i don't think your allowing the players to pick their own ships in this game was a mistake. What is the difference if it is two "line" fleets fighting each other or two non line fleets ? We have fed vs fed and face it in truth almost ALL fed ships are the same! 4 photons and 6 to 8 phaser 1's with crappy turn rates! Gee guess my love of feds is showing through! ::)And i don't believe the planetary repair is a failure either. The repair would be fine if we had more planets, or larger fleets. But as it stands now. It just is an awkward system ,to employ with the logistics of our current campaign.
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Post by Evil Spock on Aug 11, 2007 9:23:43 GMT -5
Ya I am not saying it is a failure, don't read that into it.
I have done many games with all pick your ships point spreads. It is just it results in scewed fleets.
Planetary repair also works. I think it was pared down to, as Dfly says, almost worthless. If you folks want to up the rates of repair I would be game to see it.
I don't know alot about Romulan mid era, so is it true that the main stay cruiser of mid era was a Klingon hull? Just how many hulls were shipped to Romulan space? In mid era you would say there were more KR's than WE ?
Roman, you like all picks, what about that do you enjoy most and why do you feel it should be that way for all player ships?
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Post by Head Fur Shalafi on Aug 11, 2007 10:19:11 GMT -5
They shipped over just a handful of hulls... the Roms started building the hulls shortly after.... the only thing that needed shipped over at that point was the engines
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Post by DeathFrog on Aug 11, 2007 14:18:42 GMT -5
Romulans built hulls that matched the Klingon hulls in design. The original hull ships sent by the Klinks were few in numbers but they were to be the mainstay of the Romulan design for some years. Later on the Romulans got it right when they designed a single ship with replaceable pods, hence the SP series and the SK series, and then the KH series as well.
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Post by Count Blademaster on Aug 12, 2007 1:18:43 GMT -5
I've always found it funny how this stuff is always spoken in past tense.
But yeah, I think some number of line ships per specialty/command ship restriction like they have in dyna would be a good thing. Maybe not on building but on fleets.
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Post by DeathFrog on Aug 12, 2007 7:23:01 GMT -5
it is often talked about as in the past due to the game having been out for 30 years(SFB) and we refer to that, thus the past of the future of gaming
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Post by Lord Hellus, Council Chairman on Aug 12, 2007 9:02:48 GMT -5
I had that idea for my next campaign, although on a smaller scale
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Post by Satai Vadenn ra Sinoval on Aug 13, 2007 11:17:39 GMT -5
naive question here...what is a line ship?
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